C: Hi Alexis, welcome to the show! How are you doing? Very, very glad to be sitting here with you today! I’ve been super looking forward to this to happen, cause you’re always spreading a lot of good energy and are doing so many interesting and unusual things.

I think we first met in betahaus, that big coworking space in Kreuzberg, then I saw you with your “bacteria bar” at a bunch of events e.g. in Prinzessinnengärten… AND participated in your workshops on how to make delicious Kimchi, Kombucha ….
Since then I keep telling everyone about you.

Then we recently teamed up for our Circular Economy Tour & Dinner series in Kreuzkölln.
And the reason we knew it’d be such a great fit for that, was the connection between fermentation and food waste… But there is SO much more to it and I can’t wait to extract all those bubbly secrets and stories from you.

You know, I came across a few people now who are doing stuff with fermentation - but no one is by far as passionate about it as you are. You just got such an amazing way of catching people and getting them excited about all those bubbles and fizz and bacteria in your jars

Which is surely one of the reasons why your workshops are nearly always sold out! So even better that you found your very own studio space which is where we’re at now - but we gonna talk about all of that later. First, let’s put people into the scene what we’re actually talking about here.

And I could probably roughly explain what fermentation is, but actually you are just so much better at that

So, for the people out there who are not yet familiar with the ancient art of fermentation… could you just quickly explain what’s behind it? And maybe also mention some of the major benefits?

A: So fermentation is actually just a natural phenomenon. It's basically if we look at it in a scientific way it's used eating sugar creating bubbles. And we can see that everywhere. We can see that in beer, we can see that in our own ginger beer. When you're making your own Sauerkraut or kimchi, over the next days after you put it in a jar, you can see it bubbling and juicing out over and over.

Fermentation can sometimes be messy, but the end result is often very tasty. And the reason why we chose this name, Edible Alchemy, in this whole fermentation business - it could also be called “drinkable alchemy” - because we have a lot of drinkable things like wine and beer and very exotic other things that we might not know the names of now… Sake is fermented - pretty much everything that has alcohol in it is fermented.

And the whole Edible Alchemy: alchemists try to change the wind and the air and Saturn and Mars and the Earth into gold. Even though they weren’t successful, the idea of the name is that we’re changing normal, simple things that are around us, like grapes, to have more value for our bodies, into wine… Or kimchi: taking a whole cabbage and changing it into something with more flavor and also more nutritional benefit.

So a lot of the times, this whole probiotic fad that’s going right now is about this living bacteria and that’s sort of repopulating our gut microbiome. And this is a really big topic right now - which is why Edible Alchemy is also working really well right now - is because people are interested. They wanna know how things are working inside their body. They’re realizing that it’s connected also to the outside, like our skin. Or the way we feel, the way we are thinking things because there’s a gut-brain-connection. The way that we’re digesting things and our overall attitude.

“You are what you eat”, this expression… In German they say “Du bist was du isst” - sounds even better. And it’s really really true. And in many many languages there’s even these other idioms or expressions like “follow your gut feeling”. Again, in German they have one “Bauchgefühl” (=gut feeling). And this has never been more true than now I would say.

C: Yeah! You already touched on so many different benefits here. One of course being the health aspect. I totally agree that this is becoming more and more important. Now people wanna know what’s going on in their bodies, but also what’s in their food and not just eat all this processed and packaged and unnatural sh*** that’s been out there. For that I think fermentation has a big role to play.

And then, the zero waste aspect is also a really big one, because it’s about preserving food, making them durable and not throwing so much away if you have a bit leftover...

A: For me, this has always been an issue, because of say, growing my own crops and small garden things. And it’s always such a shame when there’s parts of a plant that you can’t use raw, for example the core of cabbages. You cannot really eat them so often, because it’s very hard and people often throw them out.

But say, you have a bunch of cabbage cores, you can put them all together in a glass with salt. And overtime you get an amazing crunchy pickled cabbage core, with whatever seeds or seasonings that you want. Or broccoli stems are a great example. Or pineapple skins to make vinegar. I always do this fruit scrap vinegar - so all the fruit scraps and onion peels that people are putting in the compost or in the garbage unfortunately, you can throw in a big jar with some sugar and over weeks create your own custom living vinegar.

There’s SO many techniques to reduce food waste. And often at my workshops - especially the vinegar workshops - there should be pretty much zero bio waste at the end, cause this should all be in your jar. And teaching people new techniques how to transform food that is just about to go bad, to suddenly spike up in nutrition and also flavor. And also use the full capabilities of fruits and vegetables or grains and seeds…

Because, there is just too much food waste!

And part of the project “Edible Alchemy” started with reducing food waste in stores. You know the stores that are throwing ugly vegetables away. Or organizations that can’t sell them. So we would go to these places where they say “hey we don’t sell these three-legged carrots, so why don’t you use them to make whatever you want”.

We also worked with people that were professional dumpster divers. And meeting people that say “hey I saved all these vegetables there’s more than enough - could you use them?” Then of course, we claimed at the workshops “these are saved vegetables, use them as you want, but you can see what quality they’re in” - often, quite good. Maybe a bruise here or there, but usable. 

C: Totally! This is really cool that you basically started… That was back in Canada with the dumpster divers…

A: And here in Germany as well.

C: That’s definitely… I mean just this idea to work with dumpster divers, or to save food, is just such a good way - are you still actually doing it here? Working with saved foods?

A: From saved foods usually from grocery stores that we have a connection with and then they give you extra. Or working with bigger organizations that save it from… they maybe have Turkish market connections where they say “get the rest”, I mean, there’s just SO much food that isn’t being sold.

Or there’s a lot of CSA’s, these garden cooperatives that say “hey, we grew so much cabbage, but you know, everyone took three cabbages home but now we still have 100 left - what can we do with them?” I mean, this is in our history that we say: Let’s make Sauerkraut, or Let’s have it over the winter, so that we preserve the quality and even double the nutrition level, or quadruple or even ten-times as many nutrients as there was before, but also have really tasty treats the whole winter.

This is now also going into the culinary scene, the gastronomy scene. They say I want the newest flavor out there. I want something that nobody else has. And that’s where fermentation comes into play. Because there are very complex flavors, with this whole yeast eating sugar action, creating a more acidic environment. You never know what you gonna get. Even if you’re doing the same recipe twice, thrice, four-times, the result will always be a little bit different - also according to your environment.

That's where restaurant owners take advantage of this natural phenomenon, saying: "We’ve got the craziest sauce in town, come try it out, it’s gonna make your tongue sing." And who knows, this goes into so many directions: cultural, taste, food waste - for me, fermentation reaches really a lot of different fields.

C: Definitely! The nutritional facts, we’re diving into in a tiny little bit. I just wanted to talk about your background first, or how you’re actually got into this whole thing in the first place. Because, the funny thing is, looking at your background, you didn’t actually study biology or chemistry or any other science, nope - it was International Development!

Take us on that journey how, from there, you got first in touch with fermentation? And then ultimately launched Edible Alchemy?

I studied international development, so culture has always been important. I wanted to be with people, in different corners on the earth. Then, when I was 18, I went to Mozambique for a year and stayed in a very remote village - and the first things you learn is to survive. You know, I was a freak of nature there.

Food and water is your basic thing and there is no refrigeration! Soon they gave me a drink called Maheo. It's a fermented corn meal drink and on the 3rd day it started sparkling. Westerners probably wouldn‘t want it, cause it’s too slicky and has too many carbohydrate. But in Mozambique, these are essential. The next level of fermented drinks I tried there: Shambuku: and it's basically a 1 month fermented maheo, so really high alcohol. Looking back it was probably a bit dangerous - but definitely very intriguing...

I travelled to 39 countries and I noticed everywhere is something fermented. You cannot find one place, one country, one village, that doesn’t ferment something. And people are doing it purposefully, it’s part of their culture. They’re culturing culture within their culture. This is us wrapping our minds around what this word “culture” means.

Like the cheeses in France, they have their special caves and they’re microbiomes in themselves. Milk in one cave, the same milk in another cave and you will get just two different cheeses, that’s because of that different environment in there.

So I started exploring this whole idea, after I came home from Mozambique, with another friend from my International Development class, Natalie. She was also in Nepal for some time, and we both started exploring this bacterial culture thing with food. We were both already into food and how it nurtures the body. That’s how we started experimenting together. We got hold of different bacteria cultures.

And as a natural entrepreneur, I put it online on, kind of like craigslist - in Canada it’s called kijiji. And I said “milk kefir grains: $10 - and I just grew these things. Someone gifted me a tablespoon and now I have 10 tablespoons. Maybe I can sell them, cause I don’t need so many. And sure enough I had people crowding for this until I didn’t have enough to sell anymore. And I thought maybe I should see why people want this. So I started asking people: what’s the problem, why do you need this? And it was often because of issues with their gut health or they, or a friend had cancer.

Then I started meeting more foodie freaks like me and we started trading bacteria, so my inventory grew. I had water kefir, milk kefir, different yoghurt cultures in the Scandinavian region, kombucha, of course. And picking up the skills I thought: there are enough people to teach this to! So Natalie and I opened up a workshop and we had more interest than we thought. That’s how Edible Alchemy was born basically.

C: Amazing! It’s just crazy, you put something out there and you think maybe a few people are interested in that - but no, there’s actually so many more! I mean, this is the most beautiful way of starting a business.

A: And the time is right! I mean, we have to admit that if this was 10 years ago, it may not have run, because peoples’ anxiety over bacteria, yeast and mold was so high. You were having this anti-bacterial spray and were actually afraid of it. And finally, now, we‘re kind of riding this wave, already of our own interest, but there is this scientific research wave of information coming in how important bacteria is. So we’re just being supported by this research.

[22:10] C: Right, that’s super interesting! Just jumping back to Mozambique, because it interests me: how did you actually get this internship? Cause you were saying that it is so remote. Was it through the university

A: No, it was just on my own accord. There is an organization called Mennonite Central Committee. That’s worldwide and I think their base is in the States somewhere. And I applied for their youth mobility program where they send young people off to different places in the world to help out. I was too young at that time, usually people were around 28 and I was 18, but I was like: whatever, I’m going to apply anyway, because....

"I feel like I have skills to offer and I feel like I have energy to give and I just need to get out and see the world"

When I applied they said that I was too young to go to Africa, but because I speak Spanish, they wanted to send me to Latin America. But I was so insisting, I had a passion since I was 4 to go to Africa and I said “please, please, I want to go to Africa, I have to go to Africa, I need to go there”. And they said “well there’s this new position that nobody’s ever done before and some Mozambiquan partner brought it up to the headquarter and said it would be really cool to have someone in our village. But we’ve never written a job description for it and we’ve never sent anyone out there, only Mozambiquans have been there, so we’re not quite sure. But maybe we can talk about it.

We did a skype interview and they asked if I could handle harsh conditions, if I’d gone camping before. And I was like “oh yeah, yeah, I’m Canadian - bugs, camping, not a problem”. Seemed like it went well and I accepted the position. So I was the first one - and because of the hard conditions I think also the last one - that accepted the role in the girl’s center.

But it’s been the best year of my life, I would still say one of the most growing times where I also recognized that I wanted to be a teacher. Because I had a lot of open ears, eyes, that were willing to hear, listen and also teach me back and forth. It was a really good relationship and I discovered that teaching is so empowering. I feel empowered, they feel empowered. And whatever skills are out there, just keeping an open mind can do so much.

Amazing. What was an experience there that changed you most? Was it the teaching bit? Or was it something else?

A: I would definitely say so, yes. Just learning that I can be a teacher and I can be someone who empowers other people, but also having the openness to be empowered myself.

It’s about that exchange and also being there and being reflected and being reflective about yourself - because, nobody spoke English. And it’s an entire year that you’re living without electricity. You don’t have any connection except for a very poor Nokia mini cellphone, to talk with the rest of the world once in a while. So you’re really, really there.

[25.50] And your world of cars and cities and industrial places is so foreign to these people that you are an alien. Just opening yourself up and saying: I’m an alien, but I’m willing to be with you. And I’m willing to learn and open to give my perspectives, but also not push anything on anyone. I mean if there’s something that they can change…

"It’s not my responsibility to go in there and say: hey, you should all be going to the theatre on Friday night and doing all these things and having salaries… that’s putting unnecessary pressure on people that just don’t understand"

So, just opening myself up - and also, when I went back to Canada, to not put pressure on people that didn’t know my world in Mozambique. I didn’t say: hey, you’re throwing this away, there’s children in Africa starving… I could have! I saw that, you know, I was there! You know the World Vision commercials, where there’s kids starving in Africa. That is not all of Africa. I would definitely say you go to South Africa, there’s people richer there than you’ve ever met. But there are places like that still that DO exist - and that’s where I was.

And to not say to my mom: the water is running! Do you know that I had to carry my water by hand and carry it a kilometer to take a shower from a bucket ?! I mean, I could have been that person, but

"you have to be careful not to push your perspectives on other people that just don’t know" 

...and address the issues in a better way. And I think that’s what GreenMe Berlin is also doing. It’s just opening people’s minds and saying: this is just a smarter way to be and look at what we can do. Rather than “this is what you shouldn’t be doing”. I mean, don’t do the “don’t, don’t, don’t” but rather say: look and see, something new!

C: Totally! Thanks for drawing that connection! I was already thinking “yeah, yeah, yeah, I SO agree with this. It’s absolutely what I so strongly believe in and it’s what we’re trying to do is just showing how much fun it can be. And that sustainability is not all about ‘you shouldn’t do’ and ‘you have to stop this’...

A: "It shouldn’t be a guilt trip, but it should be a lifestyle and a decision!"

C: EXACTLY! Woah, must have been such a life-changing experience there. I always say that travel is just so important to open your eyes. Of course, you fly, the CO2… But I also think it’s wrong just to lock yourself up wherever you are, just to be more environmental. I think it’s important to understand the bigger picture. That everything is connected out there. 

When I travel to developing countries - and I mean, that wasn’t even half as intense as your experience, because my maximum was three months India. But these experiences, they make me so humble and they make me also very grateful… Like when you’re back in your Western world and you suddenly have everything there. At the same time, you learn so much from those people there, that are far away from luxury and all those amenaties and consumption - you learn what life is actually really about.

[29:40] And what’s also really incredible about the story with Mozambique is  that fermentation is also a hugely important technique for developing countries! It’s making food more nutritious AND durable! Do you think that fermentation could play an important role in solving issues in the developing world, like hunger, disease etc. ?

A: Definitely! You’re looking at places… Even in Nepal where I was climbing in the Himalayas for one month, also no cars, no motorbikes, no cellphones… The things they have in the Himalayas - and we’re thinking Everest here, that was the view when I woke up every morning…

You do not have fresh vegetables there. Everything is carried up on the back of a person, or on the back of a Zopki, which is a breed between a Yak and a cow… There’s just rice and daal, and even the daal is dull which means there’s often no salt, or very little spices. But when you’re eating in those little huts in the mountains, then suddenly they bring out this pickled mango that someone made in Katmandu - and this is the one thing that brightens up the plate. It has spice, it has salt, it has flavor and tang and it just makes the whole plate alive. And everything you eat is bio-available. So suddenly all these nutrients from the fermentation process are unlocked and even preserved over time. So that far, far away places that don’t get vegetables for a long time can survive harsh conditions.

In terms of Mozambique, people were eating these things and feeling good, you know, pumping up their immune systems against common sicknesses. It’s SO important to have a good microbiome and if you’re just eating very basic things, you’re gut microbiome is also very basic and thus vulnerable to other, more complex things. Say if an outsider comes in and brings something.

I’ll be honest, I’ve been eating fermented foods for all of my travels and I NEVER got sick. And I also was in India for two months and I was super happy that I could eat all of the streetfood. I put it all on eating good living foods already, so that the extra living foods in India didn’t bother me as much

Me too, me too! I had similar… I didn’t have that knowledge about fermented foods back then, but now that you actually say it, it’s true! There was also all those pickled mangos… 

I actually put it on that this was the time where I started to eat vegetarian (or much less meat back then), because I decided that I want to eat from the streets, so I just won’t eat meat, just to be safe. But also, of course, there were all those pickles.

On top, I was never, but never ever in my life so obsessed with… I mean some people travel with all their sprays and desinfect everything. I was just never really brought up like that and always thought that people who are over-obsessing with these kind of things, they are actually getting sick because their guts cannot handle anything else. It’s really funny this connection... 

[33:25] Just to make a little shift now: What brought you actually to Berlin?

A: Aaah, another interesting story. I was doing Edible Alchemy for a year in Canada, but I already knew I was gonna be moving to Europe. I come from Winnipeg, which is a very amazing little city, but I seemed to already know at a young age that I was not gonna stay there. I don’t know it it’s their -50 °C weather or what it was exactly - but I definitely had a craving to go somewhere else.

So I’ve been traveling the world and also exploring some more bacterial things on the way and ended up hitch-hiking from Brussels to Berlin, with the idea that I would be living in Berlin for 1 year. The visa was easy to get, this youth mobility visa as well.

I ended up opening up my first bacteria bar at Trial & Error Recycled Creativity Festvial. So there’s another organisation called Trial & Error, they’re an NGO, doing all sorts of artistic upcycling things. They got a space in Neukölln. I was a part of the group and I proposed my idea of having probiotic drinks and calling my bar the “bacteria bar”.

Because "I already knew Berlin seemed a bit edgy and this name was going to freak people out a little bit and they’re gonna be intrigued "

At the festival, I opened up the bar and from the moment I stood there, everything was sold out within a few hours and the bar was never empty until I had nothing left and packing up to go. And that was proof for me that Edible Alchemy is ready to be brought to Berlin.

Luckily, I brought all my bacteria with me - I dehydrated them for the long travel, so I rehydrated them and started to get everything going again…

So you always travel with your whole little kit of bacteria? Did you never have problems at the airport sometimes??

A: I did not take them to New Zealand and Australia because of quarantine, but in other places... a couple got confiscated but otherwise I often say it’s some kind of facial cream like my yoghurt cultures… So, a lot of them made it of course and I’ve collected a lot more since then.

The community in Berlin has very much open arms to this idea and has really thrived here and around Europe, I’m super happy. Also, the food culture here is SO much greater. The cheese for example. In Winnipeg, I was finding Cheddar, Mozzarella and Marble - and Marble is a combination of Cheddar and Mozzarella You cannot find so many varieties like here, on the street you find a cheese monger and he has something like 100 varieties of cheese and 20 of those could be different blue cheeses.

I just get super intrigued by the whole food culture. Cheese, wine and how available it is. It’s actually like paradise for this whole fermentation thing. And also peoples’ previous understanding from their forefathers.

Definitely. Food-wise, there’s been so much happening here in the last years. I moved to Berlin 11 years ago - and it was very different back then. I guess it would have been more difficult. Still, Berliners, or people living in Berlin, they LOVE to try new things. If it sounds a bit weird and a bit unusual, they’re in. That’s what I think makes it a great place for having Edible Alchemy here. 

[37:00] You were just talking about the Trial & Error project. Apart from that, is there a good scene? A good fermentation scene in Berlin, who you can exchange with or share ideas?

A: I think it’s growing. I started up another project called Mother Kombucha and brewing kombucha here in Berlin and from that, meeting a lot of restaurant owners who are doing projects and the whole gastronomy scene - and meeting also my competitors, which is actually really useful, really good, to almost build a community that way and say: hey, what are you guys doing and how is it going for you in the kombucha world?

Besides, talking internationally with different people. It’s been really good and I just think that people are getting more and more excited about it.

Absolutely, I agree. And I think this is a really good point, I love that you say that - of course, it’s competitors, but it’s so valuable for everyone to just exchange ideas and kind of work together in a way…

A: Sure, spread the knowledge! Here in Germany, compared to America where Kombucha is very known already and the market is flooded and saturated. Whereas here nobody knows about it. It’d be really hard to sell a drink that nobody knows. And very few people do know it. However,

" the more competitors there are in the market who sell Kombucha, the more power we have to make this drink understandable and get people excited about the drink"

Means I’m actually happy for more competitors to spread the knowledge - and also, make the city almost a healthier city with all the knowledge and the good bacteria.

"My longterm plan is to get more living foods on the market"

That would also contribute to less food waste! The whole knowledge of how long food should stay on the shelves. How to get it at a quicker rate and not just put it on the shelves and let it sit there for too long.

Do you mean that there would be living foods in the supermarket?

A: Yes! Real kimchi. Not pasteurized Sauerkraut - how it used to be in a way. We’re getting of course more exotic flavors on the market here that people can appreciate. But just to help peoples’ understanding of expiry dates. That, only because it has a short expiry date doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s alive and our food shouldn’t last for 40 years on our shelves. We have unrealistic expectations how long food should be there. We’re not living in war times anymore and we don’t have to prepare for the apocalypse right now.

[40:30] Exactly. Tell me about the Mother Kombucha. Of course, I know it, I found it in lots of cafés, starting in betahaus. You decided at some point to make your own Kombucha brand. You started that here in Berlin, right? How did that happen?

A: I was doing a bacteria bar again and some people were trying out my homebrewed kombucha, different flavors, and one guy approached me and said: ah, kombucha, I know a guy that’s also brewing it, you are the only two people I’ve ever seen doing this. I gotta call him and you have to meet right now.

Clemens, my business partner, came over and proposed us doing something together and make an actual product. And it’s been such an adventure! Trying to find breweries who would let us in and brew - because, it’s a living product and a lot of beer breweries are afraid of these living yeasts. Finding the right place and then marketing the drink - it’s a living drink so the expiry date is shorter than your Fritz Cola… and so many differnt development hurdles, and hurdling over and over. However, so much to learn and it’s really a fun thing to do.

We’re hoping that in the next year, in 2018, we have the next launch of new flavors and more products to offer.

Awesome! Awesome, awesome. Since you started Edible Alchemy, it’s really come a long way. 

Now, you are ‘culture dealers’ in the sense of delivering small jars of those fizzing substances to others. You are ‘bacteria baristas’ meaning you serve up herbal, cultured tinctures at art shows, festivals, events. You are also workshop facilitators AND you created an amazing online platform to share your knowledge & skills and I’m definitely of course putting all the links to your projects in the show notes.

A: Yeah, bacteria is proliferating. I mean that’s the idea of the project To share the knowledge with other people… Again, knowledge is SO empowering.

"To know more about our food is also to know more about our culture and about ourselves"

Within our economies, within our own neighborhoods to know: what can we do with this extra food and what can we do with food from the grocery store when they’re throwing that away. Just to become aware in all senses. 

[43:30] C: And you are doing an awesome part in that. And also a big part of that are your workshops, so let’s talk about those a little a bit: What happens in the workshops? And what makes you most excited about giving the workshops?

A: I give fermentation workshops of all sorts. Now it’s expanded to cultured butter & yoghurt, bread, kimchi, Sauerkraut, water kefir, kombucha, tempeh, miso, all of these things. And I love to give them because of this whole empowerment thing, to give people all this knowledge and understanding.

I mean, this would also help me in the future, say I launched a new kimchi product on the market and people say: I know kimchi, I even know how to make it, but I still wanna buy it - either because they don’t have enough time, or because they really love the flavor.

In the workshops, basically what happens is that everyone is welcome to try the probiotic snack bar. There’s always a lot of food and drinks and snacks. Everything on the table should be alive, it’s living. It’s to get over that concept, that fear that people have: “ugh, living food” - I mean, it doesn’t meant that there’s maggots in it or anything. But it might be sparkling. The water kefir might pop when I open it. The ginger beer might have some kind of volcano if I open it too quickly. These are the foods that are so rich in nutrients, you might feel it in your gut. It’s to educate people about that. And every workshop you go home with something. 

“You go home with your own creation, you learn the process of how to do it and take that skill home for life.”

It’s really one of the best investments. And I’m not just saying that people come to the workshop, but I really think it’s an investment for life. You have that skill and you can build on it and it’s your springboard to many more things.

I can confirm that. I joined the kimchi workshop and it’s just heaps of fun, first of all, and it’s just something different - lots of us are sitting behind the laptops all the time, or in the office, and this just brings people together from all kind of different backgrounds, having a really fun time, creating something with your own hands… And maybe you don’t do the kimchi on your own all the time then, but you just have such a better understanding. I always tell people to go to your workshops

Now it’s actually really cool, because you have your own studio space, which probably opens up many new opportunities for you. I know your workshops are always quickly sold out and for you it must have been kind of a hassle to always find a location. Even though it’s also connecting of course. Is that kind of the next chapter in the Edible Alchemy story?

A: Yeah, I mean, there’s always many steps. At this stage, having my own space is going to free up a lot more time that I don’t have to spend going to many different spaces on my bicycle - because I’m a very avid cyclist - I always have to bring a lot of things there.

Now it’s very convenient that I can set it up in my own time and open up as many workshops as I possibly can for the people who want them. And also to be a host for people who need a workshop space. It’s a community space, I invite people to come here anytime, when I’m here push open the door, meet me, check out the cultures - it’s a place where people can come and discuss and also try. So I’m excited for this.

And then the other whole door opening will be online. At the moment I’m working on online courses so that people can access this knowledge anywhere they want. Good reading material, good video material, make it with me online. I’m at your fingertips as a resource, I’m very much part of this community. You can email and I’m responding, because

"I wanna be amongst the people, even though it’s an online platform"

Cool, I’m really excited to follow that! I think it’s definitely a good mix to have, a face-to-face offer for people who are here, but then also spread it further for those who can’t be here. 

I just quickly wanna talk about something else. I don’t know if you give away a secret, but what advice do you normally give to people who want to get started with fermentation? (obviously come to your workshops). What’s the best food or drink to start with? Is there any book or other resource you recommend ?

A: I mean, I don’t say people have to come to my workshops, if they want to experiment on their own that’s great. It’s always about your personal taste. Say you don’t like kimchi, Sauerkraut or pickles, maybe you like something more sweet like water kefir or kombucha, I would say start in that direction. Or if you do like the whole vegetable thing, you know, it’s easier because you don’t need any of these cultures.

There’s a difference between cultured and wild fermentation. If you’re doing vegetables, all you need is salt, water and its environment, which is often a glass jar. It’s quite easy, even on the website there’s recipes for kimchi and Sauerkraut that people can get for free and even a webinar with me that you can watch and make it with me, or make it alongside.

Fermentation sounds scary - yeast, bacteria, mold sound intimidating, but are actually really great to work with, super tasty and help us a lot in our daily lives, being functioning people. This is always a point I’m trying to get across with what I do.

True. I also think lot of people struggle with being confused what foods are good and what aren’t - overwhelmed by all the new (and often contradicting) information flooding over them. What can I actually still eat...

Maybe you can share your approach to eating the “right things”: Are you super strict with your diet in a certain way? Do you only eat fermented foods ? What’s most important to you?

A: Yeah, I had the question quite often: What is your diet? Do you eat only strange things? And I’m like: no, no, no, no, no - yes, yes, yes, yes, yes

Of course I do. If you look at my fridge you’ll see lots of jars with strange things that you do not know. Inside there should be really explosive flavors. But I encourage people to just have a diverse diet. For me that’s my key. I do not restrict myself to not have candy, or cake, I love cake.

I am not a vegetarian although I do not buy meat, just because of the sustainable aspect. But let’s say somebody prepares me something and says: you should try this, and it’s coming from a good source, and I feel that there’s value in what they made for me, I’m gonna try it. I’m a flexitarian.

“I think to be more flexible in your diet and to bring in more diverse things keeps your gut guessing.” 

Which is a really good thing. It’s also a muscle, like our brain. To learn new things, to expand that knowledge and our body as well needs to have a diverse diet. Not having the same thing every day, because as soon as you put something new in there, it’s gonna freak out. So if you’re constantly putting new things in there, it’s just gonna be prepared for whatever comes next.

YES! I think that’s such an important point, not to freak out about your diet. If people ask me - I’m mainly vegan, but am also actually flexible and I share that approach: when someone prepares all this for me… or when I travel, I wanna try the local food, or when I really wanna have a piece of cheese, I’m just gonna have a piece of cheese. I think the most important thing is just to be aware and to mainly do good choices, but not limiting yourself to that. Because otherwise, we have this freedom bug in us that just wants to break out. So I’m totally on your line with that.

After chatting about all these things, it becomes even more clear to me, that you have a ton of different things going on! We already mentioned it, apart from your own workshops, you’re involved in heaps of cool events, you have your Mother Kombucha, you’re building your online course…

Yet you always seem super energetic and relaxed at the same time How do you manage to keep up the energy and always be super positive and bubbly?

A: I definitely contribute it to the probiotics. You are what you eat is definitely a part of the game. I think having a healthy diet and just feeling good frees up time to think about other things. You know, if you’re feeling ill - I mean I’m not totally invincible, I have been sick here once in a while and it definitely limits me from thinking straight and getting things done. So as I’m feeling good, I’m motivated to do the next thing.

As a freelancer, you pick and choose your times to work. Which can be a gift or a curse at the same time. I mean you can work as little or as much as you want. However, working on something that I personally feel is worthwhile is so much fun. I feel like I could just never sleep and continue exploring and inventing and making in my little chemistry lab or sharing with people. But of course, sleep is also important, it’s part of the game.

Oh man, that’s so nice. I can really relate to that, just do what you love and get people excited about it. 

Before we move on to the final bit, I just wanna throw this question into the room - thinking about all those things you’re passionate about, or the things that you built up, or maybe also just general in your life - What are you most grateful for right now?

A: This building. I’m now in the Boppstraße in Kreuzberg, Graefekiez and I’m biased when I say it’s the most beautiful Kiez in the whole of Berlin, where I have my space. And on the very top of this building, I have my rooftop garden, and underneath the top is my apartment. Everything seems quite centred here, which means I can spread that energy around the rest of Berlin. This is kind of like the great meeting point for me.

Being in Berlin now for 3.5 years, I’ve reached that point where I feel that this is really home. And being an avid traveler and being to 39 countries, I finally found a place that I say, I could be for a long time. And that is super unusual.

For all those travelers out there who believe that can never happen to you: it’s pretty surreal. To feel that, woah, this is a place I’m gonna be for some time now.

Wow, that’s powerful. I’m not even sure if I found that just yet. I mean, of course, Berlin is the base and I know why….

A: Yeah, I mean, it’s always changing. And I’m not saying it’s the law and I’ll be here forever. But just at the moment, settling here… uch, I never thought I’d say the word “settle”

We’ll see what happens. I say, I’ll be in this space for the next 6 months for sure and perhaps keep doing the microbial circus, which is another line with Edible Alchemy. It’s the touring part. Sort of an edutainment - entertainment and education. That’s what the microbial circus is all about. I travel often with Natalie, the original co-founder, we go together, pick up new skills, teach other skills and collect bacteria and bring them to new corners of the world.

The next microbial circus will probably be next year February. You have to go when the weather is cold.

Definitely! Where is it gonna be, do you know?

A: Often we go to colder places actually Last year we went to Iceland. Which was amazing. And definitely dark. But beautiful in its own way. We tried a lot of fermented things, like their famous “Hauka”, which is fermented shark. It’s very very strong and makes your eyes water before it even hits your mouth…

That sounds crazy! Now let’s get to the final bit. First of all, I could just go on forever sitting here with you and listening to all those amazing stories. I’d say let’s draw it slowly towards the finish. 

As always, I’d like to know: Since starting out on that journey to fearless fermentation - what was your biggest learning so far?

A: There’s so many things. I would say it’s even delivering a workshop in a second language and letting myself really do that, having enough confidence.

“So here I am in Germany, teaching the Germans how to make Sauerkraut, auf Deutsch :)”

This is something I feel I’m proud of, but it’s always something to work on. And I think to teach someone in another language something that is another language - which is microbiology.

Wow, that’s a pretty big thing. But your German is awesome, by the way. Second thing, if you could change one thing in Berlin within the next 24 hours - what would it be?

A: The amount of sun that comes in November / December. Berlin has a lot of energy I wouldn’t change that. A lot of interesting people and I like that. I would just say the sunshine that affects people, or people working at the Bürgeramt to be more friendly

Oh yeah, sunshine, definitely a big part. But who knows what it would do to the energy of the Berliners! It would be totally exploding.

A: Yes! Or if we’re thinking in the sustainable way, perhaps installing more ashtrays around the place. It’s a heavy smoker city and there’s just a lot of cigarettes all over the place and it could be nice to have some artsy ‘Aschenbecher’.

That’s actually a good idea! Berlin senate, or whoever is responsible for that, you know what you got to do! Next, what question should I have asked you but didn’t?

A: Maybe you asked me everything. What question… Well, I could say, definitely check out ediblealchemy.co - “co” for collaboration, colaboratory - and check out what workshops are coming up. Please feel free, if there are avid fermenters out there, to share your recipes and I’d love to post them with the community and get inspiration out there. So check out the website and maybe what workshops come up that might be inspiring you to join if you’re in Berlin.

(Find all the links below the photo section)

Final question: If there was one thing you could pass on to the GreenMe Berlin community/ people out there - what would it be?

A: Let’s reduce the food waste and think about creating more interesting vinegars, for example. You can create vinegars out of onion peels, pommegranate skins, apple skins and cores and 

"...let’s just see how little food waste we could possibly make by creating more unique, tasty, complex things with our, what we would call ‘waste products’"

YEAH! I’m so up for this and wanna really push this. It just leaves me to say thank you SO much, for your time, and for sharing all those amazing stories. And also in general, for being here with us in Berlin, to stay here, to spread this whole movement and really open peoples’ minds and their taste buds. I just deeply acknowledge you for the work that you do with Edible Alchemy. And for being so passionate about sharing and empowering people to live a healthier life and create a healthier planet.

A: And you!

Haha, awesome - thanks so much!

C: Hey Martin, warm welcome. Really nice to have you on the show today. How are you? Ready to share some inspiring stories?

M: Well I’m good thank you, it’s Monday morning...

C: Haha, yeah - ready to share some inspiring stories?

M: Of course!

C: I've just been in Portugal last month and met your co-founder Robert at a friends wedding...

M: Christoph's wedding...

C: Exactly, Christoph Fahle, the founder of betahaus - they’re really good friends. Yeah, and Robert actually was also the one who connected us (Thanks Robert)...

At Coffee Circle, you guys are doing SO much: you sell coffee, you roast coffee, you educate about coffee, you give workshops, you tell stories… and, most importantly, you share your profits directly with your farmers in Ethiopia, Columbia…. For me, you really pushed the social business movement - especially here in Berlin you were one of the first ones I could think of who really showed: you can create amazing products, that taste delicious, grow a brand around it AND really build bridges and leave a positive impact.

Now you opened up a roastery up here in Wedding, an open place where people can come and pick up their coffee and geek out on all things related to that delicious bean. We gonna talk about all that in a bit…. 

But first, something that I’m burning to know: You come from a very different background: you were climbing up the ladder to success as business consultant, big money... Then you followed your co-founder Moritz who took a sabbatical in Ethiopia - and a few months later there was Coffee Circle. Can you take us to that moment that changed everything - what happened in you that made you quit a super high paying job to start a social, purpose driven business like Coffee Circle?

M: First of all, wow! When you describe it that way it sounds like it was all planned and figured out right before we started. Which is absolutely not the case. I don’t know, when we started, we were in consulting almost 4 years. And you get to a point where you think “alright, now I know a lot, I’m very experienced” and you wanna change. It was still an intriguing job as you described it, but nevertheless…

We had that opportunity with Ethiopia. And being there with Moritz for 2 months, we figured out that there did not so much actually happen there in the last decade. It was still one of the poorest countries we had in the world. We’ve seen some other countries before, but people earned....

Nowadays they earn about 700 dollars. Back in those days, they earned about 340 dollars. Per year. It’s very obvious in daily life how poor people are. So that added definitely to the motivation to do something with Ethiopia.

We were there for an NGO, a charity project, which was really nice. It’s called Project E and Moritz’s brother initiated it a few years ago. And we then thought about what can we actually do which is not a charity, not an NGO. Because, I don’t know if you remember, back in the 80’s they had this huge famine. And they had Bob Geldof, the Live Aid Concerts. And you had the kids shown with their hunger bellies…

So even though there was lots of money given to the country, we didn’t see any real change. Then, adding this with our background, which was business - and I’d say a lot of self-confidence combined with naivety - we thought “okay, we can somehow do something here in Ethiopia, let’s find something that we can trade, we can produce…” We wanted to figure something out that we can do, which first of all, is a business - because that was our belief, that we can economically drive something. To foster entrepreneurship so we can support people somehow on a small scale. Because this is what we learned, that it should in the end increase income, increase wealth and then somehow lift countries out of poverty.

C: Yeah, it’s a new way of doing business. I would have asked you that as well - why did you start it as a social business instead of a non-profit or donation-based to help people in Ethiopia…

M: We were convinced that it’s somehow possible. But nevertheless, I didn’t know the terms of social business back then. I learned about it two, three years later through, I think Muhammad Yunus…

C: Ah, I’m just reading his book.

M: Yeah, but I didn’t know it at that time. We were just sure that we are good enough… we thought we could sell something which can create a great income for us - we wanted to build a big company. It’s not that we wanted to launch a nice little project, as we’ve got lots of great, yet small projects around here. No, we wanted to go for building a company, earning money with it, but nevertheless do things right. And somehow we were convinced we could do that.

Then we figured out it should be coffee, because, I mean, why did we pick coffee in the end…

C: Exactly, why coffee? Have you always been a coffee addict, did you have heaps of knowledge about it…?

M: No [both laugh]... We drank apparently a lot of coffee. But I grew up with supermarket typical coffee, like how we all grew up through our parents, there was always some kind of brand.

Anyway, I didn’t know about coffee. Neither of us knew about coffee. But thinking like very analytical consultants, we knew two things: First, it’s the number one export product of Ethiopia - at some point we also figured out that it’s the origin of coffee. It’s very present in daily life there. And second,

    << the Germans drink a lot of coffee. We drink it more than beer and mineral water. >>

C: What?? Wow…

M: Yes! What we didn’t know at that time was that Germans love to drink extremely cheap coffee - but that’s another challenge. So this were the basic reasons why we decided for coffee.

And Robert, who you just mentioned… We came back to Munich (we lived all in Munich back then). We came back and said “Robert, we have this wonderful idea, we gonna do coffee”. And he looked at us like “Guys, did you have a too hot shower or what’s wrong? There’s coffee everywhere and now you just wanna enter a saturated market”. And we were like “yeah, yeah, it’s a wonderful idea!” - and at some point we convinced him…

C: Alright, so first he had his doubts - how about your environment, your friends and family, when they heard that you wanna ditch your job as a consultant and start a coffee business? How was that?

M: It’s two things. First, from the outside you see: his job is consultant. And all of us actually went through the same path - why do you start working as a consultant? Most of the time, not because you wanna have that clear consulting career… No, it’s because you don’t know what the hell you should do

When you become a consultant, you have the chance to learn a lot within a very short period of time, because you just work a lot. And second, you always have project work. So you see different companies, different markets, different countries. And that makes this opportunity so interesting. But it’s not because you want to stay a consultant forever.

Of course, parents or older generations, who are more security oriented - I mean, they asked me more questions than others. I think in general, everybody thought we are nuts. But everybody said “yeah, great idea! I love it! Wow, you take this decision, you’re so brave” and so on…

Nowadays, seven years later, when I ask those people “what did you really think”? Everybody tells me “Martin, I thought you’re completely crazy, it’s not gonna work out. I really didn’t know why the hell you were doing this”. This is actually quite funny to see.

C: Haha, it is. But it’s actually great, because they were still giving you all this background and support by not saying honestly what they think back then. And you prove them wrong.

M: Yes, now it’s easy to talk about it. But also, we didn’t set that pressure so high. So if it didn’t work out, we would have been “okay, it’s no big deal, let’s try something else then.

C: Yeah, just go out and try. Just moving back one step: what triggered you in the first place to join Moritz in Ethiopia?

M: Erm, Project E was a project where there were mainly students. It was about buiding and opening a school for orphans, for girls actually. And we lived close to each other in Munich, went out on weekends and we were friends. So then Moritz started to talk with me about it… Then, it was 2008 and he said, okay I’m gonna take a sabbatical. And I took all my vacation, which added up to two months and said “I can join you”. Why not? It was Ethiopia, it was something I was interested in, there was something to do… That was actually the reason why.

C: I understand, personally. Something always draws me to Ethiopia when I think of Africa. It’s this part of the world where you can really find some kind of adventure, but also learn a lot, I guess, about yourself and also about how the world actually works.

I am personally a big advocator of traveling - even though sometimes in the green scene I’m getting these odd looks because of flying, CO2 etc… But I so strongly believe in travel - not mass tourism of course - but really deep travel…. How do you think about that?

M: I think of travel as one of the strongest - and maybe one of the only - ways to open up your mind to new ideas, to reflect on yourself, who you are and maybe also, what you can do. I mean, I grew up in Germany, so I was extremely lucky. I went through a wonderful education. But it was not before I… I think the first time I truly went out of Germany was when I went to New Zealand in 2000… well, that’s a long time, 17 years ago. I travelled through New Zealand, also a lot in Asia and at some point also in Africa. I also lived in China for two years. So this is when you start learning about yourself and put yourself into perspective. And I think this also gives you the confidence to say, okay I can do something. Which you may not be able to look at when you just stay in your own environment, where everything’s set up.

I think this is very important, if you don’t travel you’ll never have these kind of experiences. It’s also about being helpless at some point. Being able to laugh about yourself, because you’re just in a situation where you don’t speak the language, you don’t know what the hell you’re doing… you’re just helpless.

C: Just getting out of your comfort zone, that’s it! That’s probably something that helps you a lot also as a founder and social entrepreneur. What would you say is one of the biggest strengths of you as that founder? Things that you needed, that you developed and that really helped you?

M: It’s always difficult to talk about my own strengths…

C: Hehe - okay, what would you say if I’d search your advice and ask “Martin, what do I need to be a social entrepreneur”

M: I think you must have a relentless drive to achieve something. And you should not really stop - you should not be the one being resistant. Somehow you always need to go forward. And you will have failures all the way, you will go and do a lot of mistakes. This is just normal. But if you kind of calibrate yourself to a point where you say

     << it’s alright to make those mistakes - actually, I must make them >>

...then I think you have the base for growing. I learned so many things, I wouldn’t know where to start. I think that drive is still there, and also that we’re convinced that what we’re doing is worth it and that we can change stuff.

It’s also about accepting that it’s extremely hard work - and when you not really want to work for years for a materialistic low income, but also in a not very comfortable environment… It’s not very professional in the beginning. It’s not that you have all the perfectly trained staff who can do all the administration. You have to set up basically everything by yourself. That must be very clear I think, in the beginning.

And then, of course, you also must be a bit lucky. You must know or meet the right people and just be able to keep learning. That persistence in combination with a bit of luck…

C: What you just mentioned about resistance, it’s something I keep pondering about and I was just listening to the summary of the War of Art. And the author keeps mentioning that one point is definitely resistance and overcoming that resistance, which is really confirming what you just said.

Now we’ve talked about some of the starting points and the foundations of you as a social entrepreneur, but I also wanna talk, of course, about all the amazing impact that Coffee Circle has and...

Seriously, looking at your website is impressive! It’s so full of coffee knowledge, you really don’t keep anything secret. There’s tons of insights, from how coffee is roasted, to how to brew the perfect coffee with every kind of coffee maker! Why was that so important to you, to put so much work and effort into creating all that free content?

M: Different reasons. It’s not just because we love to do it. I think it also comes to showing numbers and what we do and how we do stuff. I think that transparency is the key to building up credibility. In the end, we are building a brand. So if you want to be credible so that people come back and, in the first place, pay three to four times the money they would pay for a supermarket coffee, you need to appear credible.

And with being online... I mean, we do not run a café - at least not yet. So it’s difficult for us to convince people without them being able to touch and smell and taste the coffee before they buy it - I think that’s a challenge we will always have. So we decided for us that transparency is very important.

And, to put it in a nice way: people understand it and it’s easy to digest. We think about coffee 24 hours a day. They might think about coffee 2 minutes a day and still we need to get some messages to them somehow. I think that’s really important.

On the other side, we have a lot of traffic on the website. The first time somebody visits coffeecircle.com, he wants to know more about how to grind coffee the perfect way, or how to brew it the perfect way. By then, you as a visitor might already have your own coffee at home, but when we transport a nice image, then they might at some point also buy our coffee. So, there is a commercial idea behind it. But of course, it’s to argue, because we spent so much time for years into producing that content that by now, we must have the biggest website for coffee knowledge in Europe!

C: I’m pretty sure. There’s so much added value by openly sharing all this extra knowledge. It also shows that you really celebrate that product COFFEE. It’s not just a cheap commodity that you quickly wash down… This is integrity, you really live what you do, I love that….

Tell me, what is it (apart from the coffee) that makes you jump out of bed every morning and get to work?

M: I think the most important thing for me is having the chance to work in that kind of environment, that is mainly the team members. It’s a luxury to have built up that team. And now, I mean management level we’re not that big. But let’s say our Head of Marketing, our CTO, the Head of Coffee…. I work with some of those people already six years, or at least more than three years. So they grew as a kind of team which makes me happy to see growing. This is on a daily basis the reason I get up every morning.

When you then think every half year or every Christmas “what the hell am I doing in general in life?”, of course, you think about the impact you had, what you achieved that year… That impact is very abstract when you’re here in Berlin every day, going through your operational things. And then to always have in mind that every month, we create say 15,000 euros or more for Ethiopia just by doing what we do… It’s difficult to think about that as a motivation everyday. But if you reflect it’s there.

<< We just passed the 500,000 euro investment into Ethiopia…  It keeps growing just by you growing the company. That’s the beauty of the model we have >>

C: Wow, 500,000 euros investment in the projects? That’s incredible! I’m gonna come to that again in a little bit. But quickly, because you just mentioned your team: what I really loved when I flicked through your website is that, right underneath you, the CEO and co-founder, there are the people who roast the coffee! Not your sales guys, not marketing… But the roasters. Do you see them as your heroes?

M: Hahaha, I don’t know if there was any thought behind it - but of course, it’s at the core of what we’re doing. We started our own facilities about a year ago and it changed a lot the entire perception of who we are. So it was very important for all of us to have it now here in house. I mean, we roasted on different facilities before. Hannes, the Head Roaster, roasted here before. But that’s different.

And coffee is at the core. It’s about selecting the origins we work with, picking the right coffees, creating roast profiles and then also roast them every day and every week, keeping up the quality of it - which is at the core.

<< If it doesn’t taste good, you can do good wherever you want, but people will not buy again. >>

Exactly! There’s so much behind it… And I think it should be the essence - and I love that you say that - of sustainably oriented businesses. Not just making something sustainable and then hoping that people buy it just because of that. But of course, it has to taste good to really make an impact. And then on top being sustainable

M: I think you mentioned something really important. And that discussion I have very often within that social entrepreneurship scene. 

This is just true in very rare cases actually. In the end, you have the challenge to provide a better service than “normal” businesses. You must have a superior product. You must do everything right, as all the other businesses. But at some point, you put something on your shoulders where you are more ethical… To break it down: you pay more money. Or invest more time, which costs money in the end. So you need to just be a lot better in order to achieve that valid sustainability or social consciousness.

This is something I come across unfortunately very often. That people have a lot of motivation to do the right thing, but haven’t figured out yet that it’s not that, just because you define that you’re doing something good, people are going to buy it.

We have that argument all the time: how much emphasis do we put into communication about what we do in Ethiopia vs. how much do we put on videos about “How to prepare a Cappuccino”.

<< To be very honest, if you put something out about how we built a school for 1,000 kids in Ethiopia vs. 5 Tips for a perfect Latte Macchiato, you will have ten times the clicks on the Latte Macchiato vs. the school >>

So this is the reality. And there are several reasons - I fully understand that not everybody wants to be involved with all those poor people in other parts of the world. So you must be very sensitive in the communication and you also must be very sensitive in what to expect from the social aspects or environmental aspects that you include in your business model. And, in my experience, this is never a key success factor.

C: That’s super, super interesting actually. You have to be always that notch better and put so much effort into it. And I agree that I think this is how many sustainable projects fail. They think about their mission and their cause. But if they don’t think about the right ressources, the right skills, the right people and create an awesome product that people want, not just for that sustainable factor - that’s what’s keeping it in a small, small niche instead of bringing it to the masses.

M: I mean there are other areas where you have USP’s. This is when it comes to people. You can hire the best people and they really want to work for you, because you have a great cause. Even though in the end, they build a perfectly commercial product, but they know what they’re doing it for. So you have a USP in talent that you attract.

You can also have a different standpoint when it comes to financing. You have different sources to finance your company. There are not many, but there are more and more social impact funds. So also there you have access to.

Especially in Germany, there are a lot of family businesses who invested a lot in charity in the past. And they see the appeal of social impact investments. Then there is more money that you can attract when you do it right.

But when it comes to product and service, people usually don’t buy it because you’re fair.

C: True. But as you say, there are more and more funds and more and more people who want to be involved in creating a great product while also being fair and sustainable. I think generally, it’s headed down a good path.

I just wanted to shift gears again and talk about your impact in the world, where the coffee comes from: 1 Euro per kg of coffee sold goes to social projects - what kind of projects are they, how do you choose them?

M: We actually have three areas: one is health, which also includes water, so sanitary and hygiene projects where we were very active in the past. One is education. And the third one is value chain. That means training farmers to improve quality.

I mean, we started with building a well. That was a very small project. Then we equipped some small health posts in Ethiopia. Learning by doing - we also do a lot of mistakes. I hope the well is working… Anyway, the first larger project was building a school. That was already 4 years ago. We also equipped it with electricity. Now, within the last 3 years, we did one larger project which, in total, will cost us 680,000 euros. It’s a WASH project for almost 20,000 people…

C: A WASH project?

And now we added more, we started the first larger project in the value chain: we gonna work with 10,000 farmers, also in Ethiopia, over three years in order to train them in agriculture practices, how to improve quality in yield. And also in accounting, leadership, so that the management of the cooperatives gets better. That the payments are clear, cash flow flows the right way, but nevertheless, that they get more for their coffee.

Apart from that we’ve also been to Colombia to do some quality improvement projects. We built a lab for them - because they’re much further developed. Building a school in Colombia is not an issue, education, nor is water supply. So << we try to figure out how to have the greatest impact per euro invested >> And of course, then you end up investing more in Ethiopia compared to developed countries.

C: Amazing. That’s very exciting. You just mentioned that you’re excited to actually go and see it and I guess, you’ve done that in the past with projects that have been finished… How is that? You initiate a project from Berlin and when it’s finished you go there… How does that feel to be there with the community? What kind of reaction do you get?

M: How we came up to define this project I think is important. It’s not that we go and say “we are rich, you are poor. You can’t afford a school and we are sooo nice, here is a present”. NO. It’s understood - and that’s very important, it’s also a major difference to “normal” development work - it’s understood as part of the compensation for the great coffees they produce before. Especially when it comes to how we build schools or do the WASH projects. So, it is already their project. Of course, we channel the money back. But it’s also understood that, without them producing those great coffees, there wouldn’t be a school in the end.

And this makes a big difference in the end how it’s perceived. First of all, the commitment to the project, the participation of the people - I mean, we always expect something from them, whether it’s stones, sand, transport, any kind of help with construction. I think it’s the only, I think, dignifying way. The dignity they feel in creating it themselves vs. we come and say “you’re so poor, so we give you something”.

This is something we do not really push, but this is what we see. And << I’m actually most proud of when there’s not only the school, but when it’s run and operated by them. They look after it and keep developing it >> This is the core, which we didn’t expect in the beginning, but that’s just dignifying…

Totally, it makes so much sense! That’s also linked to the empowerment model that’s possible through social business. It’s not just “we give you lots of money and let’s quickly fix something”. I think that’s also what Muhammad Yunus is really advocating. Empower people to learn skills so they can actually improve their lives on their own. It totally hurts dignity if it’s just this “here we are, the wealthy white man, and this is what we do for you”. It’s really amazing that you take this approach as well.

M: One story when we built the school, for example… It’s a probability. So you never know, when you come back, who’s gonna use it… And during the building we didn’t have enough funds transferred. Cause that’s sometimes a problem, too, to channel the funds. So we asked if they can basically pre-finance the construction. The responsible teacher went throug the community and collected money from the farmers and everyone, and actually pre-financed some kind of construction! Just by the word that we’re going to pay you back!

And this is something, I already talked to NGO’s and told them that this happened and they were like “What?! This is just absolutely insane, it’s not gonna work” - but it worked already. Then we opened the school and the government had to send teachers. Because we don’t wanna create any dependencies. So for the teachers and staff, it’s already clear before investing that they send them. And then of course, the confidence of the farmers who built that school is like “ey guys, you promised you gonna send teachers now”. We didn’t need to do anything, because they were so confident, they kind of demanded what they were promised.

Then I went with my sister and her husband… I mean, usually you come and there’s a great celebration and I really like that because it’s nice, it’s for everybody kind of a cool symbol. But what for me was worth more personally, was coming with my sister like four weeks after, not telling anybody that we’re coming. You have to hike there for an hour from the last street… so we went there and we said “ok, what’s gonna happen now?”. Is there somebody in the school? Is it not used? And we arrived and all the classes were running! There were teachers in there… That was like, wow, it seems to work even if we’re not there 365 days a year in order to control. That was powerful for me.

C: Wow. Just when you tell me, it really goes into my heart…

M: I mean it would have also been really embarassing for me in front of my sister if it didn’t work [laughs]

C: Okay, cool. Now you were already mentioning empowering farmers by sharing skills in terms of yield and everything - I just quickly wanna talk about Fair Trade. There are labels - I don’t know, is your coffee Fair Trade?

M: No

C: No, exactly. And there is always this whole discussion about Fair Trade or the “Bio” label. And people look “is this Fair Trade? No? Ah no, I don’t want it.” For me there is this story that small farmers often can’t afford it… And this is a huge problem that people don’t see that some are still using the same principles, it just doesn’t have that label on it. How do you go about that challenge?

M: Yeah, of course we try to explain a lot. And we decided against Fair Trade, for several reasons. Fair Trade is not made for the kind of quality we do. It’s for mass market production. I think the most valuable thing Fair Trade did in the past was setting a minimum level comparing to the world market. They regulate that, whenever the market falls below $ 1.40 per pound of green coffee, everybody who’s Fair Trade certified gets $ 1.40. Whether it’s there or below. I think this is the most powerful thing.

On the other hand I would say they have lots of inefficient ways. It’s not the right incentive that Fair Trade sets for farmers. In our case, and I’m really talking about high quality coffee and not about plantation coffee in Brazil for example. The quality aspect is not the focus in Fair trade.

The cooperatives have to pay for being certified. And we did this with the organic certification, we have some organic certificates. But then, you end up with… you meet cooperatives - not in Ethiopia, because they don’t have the money - but in Colombia, you see cooperatives who have eleven certificates. Eleven!

I mean, there is Fair Trade International, there is Fair Trade Japan, there is Fair Trade Europe, there is Organic Europe, there is Organic Japan, there is Organic Korea, Organic US, then there is bird-friendly, there is woods, there is Rainforest Alliance… you don’t even know where to start. And they have to pay for the certification themselves, in order to be certified. So you can imagine what kind of huge investment that is. And in the end, it’s just a Marketing thing.

Because, I mean we pay… I don’t know, this is something I actually don’t agree with when people do it: when you see Fair trade coffee in the supermarket, you pay, I don’t know, 3 euros for it, maybe more. But there is no quality in there. And that’s really why we don’t go into the Fair Trade system. There’s a defined fee that goes to the Fair Trade organization. And the organization is just responsible for the premium section of the pay which comes to the farmer - which is again a small share. So we’re not talking about euros, we’re talking about 50 cents or so. So I think this premium in Marketing - and this is also really contradictory somehow - that premium is not going to the farmers. Most of the premium you pay for the coffee goes to the supermarkets…

So it’s a thin line. It’s good - I do not wanna argue against it. I just think more transparency and questioning if it’s still the right model would be wise. It would also be important to establish a proper model where you consider country by country. It doesn’t make any sense to say, this is the world market price and one-fits-all. Because every country has different cost structures. The production per tree is completely different - Ethiopia is about ¼ of trees in Colombia. So you have to imagine you have to go to 4 trees instead of one for picking the same amount of cherries. All of that comes together when we talk about price.

It’s a start… but it’s not the future. It’s just the future because I think lots of brands will, when they wanna do fair trade, go the easy way. And the easy way is buy a certificate. 

C: You just mentioned the future. Taking in all the different things that you do - where do you see a big potential in the future? For you as Coffee Circle, and maybe also on a wider scope, for people wanting to create social businesses, projects that make a difference out there….

M: I think in general, before I come to coffee, I think in food is a lot of potential. I mean, it was a one-way communication. It was supermarkets with the brands built up one way. If it comes to coffee Dallmayr Prodomo with “vollendet veredelter Spitzenkaffee” (perfectly refined top quality coffee) - it’s the same slogan, and surely it’s not the best coffee you can get… Actually the quality increased over the last three decades, but anyway.

I think in food, there is a lot of potential. Not only new food, but also to rethink food. It will, of course, become much more expensive for all of us.

C: Yes. But I think, in general, it’s just been too cheap. Especially in Germany, people just got used to this. Look at our crazy discounter culture.

M: Absolutely. I think the awareness of people in terms of food will increase. They question more and more and realize that there’s just a different way to go by. And when it comes to coffee, there is one movement, which we call the third wave of coffee.

We had the first wave, that was the mass market coffee available everywhere - cheap, extremely low quality. This is the supermarket coffees I was talking about. Then we had that second wave starting in the 1990’s which was massively driven by Starbucks, so Espresso based drinks - Cappuccino, Latte Macchiato and all of that…

C: Ah that was Starbucks?

M: Yeah, interesting, right? And now we’re talking about a third wave of coffee. The first two rather focussed on either roast or especially price. And now it really comes to a culture where, in every step in the value chain - from crop planting, agronomy, picking, preparation, there are different preparations of coffee, sundried, not sundried and some new ones… I forgot to mention the plant varieties, which also play a role… to roasting, to serving, everything along that chain - to really think about quality first.

Which creates in the end an entirely different experience in your cup. It’s not about those dark eshy roasts that comes in a cup which we know from the big brands. It’s about origins. It’s about how Kenyan coffee tastes different from coffee from Indonesia. How the roast affects the sweetness. It’s something that we deeply think about, we experiment. And this is at a very early stage still. We see that the US is about 5-10 years ahead of us. We see specialty roasters like Blue Bottle, Stumptown, Counter Culture Coffee… We are about 10 years back in Europe. But this is a development we see and the nice thing is we are just at the beginning.

The base of coffee is about 800 aromas. Wine doesn’t even have half of it. So when we look into the supermarkets into the wine offer and you have… I don’t know the Rewe that just opened for sure has 400 different wines - and in wine it’s also important where it comes from, how it was prepared, what year, all of this. And these are exactly the same reasons why coffee tastes also different: it’s the year, it’s the soil, it’s the sun. It’s how you prepare it, how you roast it and how you brew it. If that parallel holds up for the next years, I think we can expect a major shift in coffee consumption everywhere.

Nevertheless, we will have to pay much more for our coffee. But today, you can also buy a bottle of wine for 2 euros and one for 50. Some will pay 10 or 12 and some will still be happy with the 2 euro one. So I think there’s a major shift that will also affect the coffee industry. It does already. And when people actually start to spend more and start to question what’s behind the coffee…

100% Arabica is just no sign at all for quality, it’s a marketing thing, there are extremely, extremely bad Arabica’s out there. This is still this kind of marketing I was talking about before of those old brands, who have established an African Blue or Dallmayr Prodomo… I mean, coffee grows every year and those brands exist for 30 or 40 years, so of course, it’s always changing coffee in there. So they try to engineer that the coffee always tastes the same. So it’s about realizing that it tastes different and then the consumer maybe decides what he wants or not.

C: That’s definitely a good point, that the consumer wants to decide what they want, what they drink, what they consume. And I love that you mention that big potential on food, because I totally see that and I’m very passionate about everything that comes to rethinking the way we eat and how things are grown.

M: And I just see how much power we as consumers. Now, there’s so much knowledge out in the internet, you spread lots of knowledge through your website… I think the more traditional food industry players really have to change A LOT.

It’s gonna be very difficult for them. Especially, food is one thing, but I think the combination with technology we actually have already. How we use the website in order to be transparent, this is I wouldn’t say true technology, but the internet… But yeah, food tech… This is what we see in coffee, the next step would be that they analyze on a chemical and biological level what makes a good cup of coffee. And then you can go back to what kind of variety and origin could be grown here and there in order to create a better flavor in the cup in the end. So it’s something where you can actually go down the chain and use technology to improve the taste. And then also having more money in the chain, cause you fit more the taste for the customer.

C: Yeah. I mean food and tech, that’s also gonna be something very interesting for Berlin and I know, last week there’s just been the 1st Food Tech Summit, Berlin is a startup city, there’s a tech scene - and combining that with food I think there’s gonna be a lot happening.

Speaking of Berlin, I wanna switch the direction just one more time. I really wanna know what role did Berlin play in kicking Coffee Circle off the ground?

M: So many aspects. I mean, we moved for Coffee Circle from Munich to Berlin, because somehow we felt that innovative ideas fall on a much better ground here. Second, it was much more affordable, I think that’s still the case. Third, you have more innovative people working here.

And Coffee Circle specifically, I mean, we started in betahaus - we just mentioned Christoph Fahle before - which is one of those places where creativity has a platform and comes together. So this is where we benefited and we were there for almost two years. Back then, the startup scene was relatively new. It was mainly e-commerce companies driven by business guys. Now it’s more, let’s say for three years now, there is much much more tech coming in. Much more international people and also money coming into Berlin.

I think it is a very good development - and still needs attraction I’d say. If you would have asked me five years ago, I probably would have said “I know about 80% of the people working somehow in the startup scene in Berlin. We had a few events and you always met the same people. Today: not at all anymore. Probably I know a maximum of 5% of people. I think that changed a lot.

    << And it’s still one of the most attractive places you can be in to start a company >>

C: Yeah! I mean from here, you really grew into a little empire, I mean your coffee is available in many other cities - and obviously online. In Berlin, I think there’s over 100 places where people can either drink or buy your coffee - also some of my favorite places: Daluma, betahaus, Haferkater…. I’ll drop the link into the shownotes so people can check it out.

But in 2014, you moved actually up from hip Kreuzberg here to Wedding, then opened up the roastery…. Why Wedding? And what did that change?

M: Yeah, Wedding… the ever-coming Wedding (Berlin joke). No, we were actually looking for a really nice building and we found it here. We were looking for three floors with around 300 sqm each. We wanted to have one for production, one for logistics and one for the office and it was difficult to find something which is easy to reach. In the first place we thought “Wedding? Why Wedding?” and then we decided that we just gotta be the first mover, it’s alright. And it turns out now, Wedding is indeed coming Looking in our neighborhood, it’s actually quite interesting.

C: Totally! I just recently ran a Circular Economy Tour through Wedding and we discovered so many exciting projects. Of course, it’s very different than over in Kreuzberg, but it’s kind of exciting to venture into that. And I think you’re also involving himmelbeet - the urban garden that’s quite close to here - you’re bringing over your coffee grounds and they use it as a dung… So I think you’re really building up something and being one of the first movers here is definitely something unique.

Just to spark a bit of that Berlin passion - what is it that you love most about the city?

C: I agree. I don’t wanna stretch your time too much longer, so let’s just switch to the final little bit. There are four questions that I ask all my guests. Looking back on 6, nearly 7 years Coffee Circle - I’m sure it’s been a crazy roller coaster ride - what was your biggest learning/ aha-moment that you wanna share with us?

M: [chuckles] well if you wanna have an aha moment… First of all, it was all a development, also with me. So I wouldn’t say this is one key moment. I think a key moment was at the very beginning, when we figured out this 1 Euro per kilogram model and thought we gonna do projects… At some point, you need the communities in Ethiopia. And I remember this very cheesy moment: we came into the cooperative, walked by the mountain and the leaders of the cooperative were sitting below the tree on benches waiting for us. We didn’t know exactly what kind of questions we gonna ask them, but we wanted to figure out what kind of projects we should do with them and if they understand our model.

They actually understood it very well, it was very easy and we were like “they really understand what we wanna do here, and we can come back and invest something more” - and then we asked the first question and asked “okay, what do you want us to build?” And they said: “a street!”. You know, we were just at the beginning and a street is like… I don’t know a 7km street… We tried to explain to them “look, this is quite small, we have about 1,000 euros, could you think about something else than a street?”. And then actually a doctor in the community said “think about a well because we don’t have access to clean water”. And then everybody’s like “well, that’s a good idea”. We figured this out and it was kind of easy and I think this was a moment where we knew it can work. But that was at the very beginning.

What I just learned - and this is quite general - getting expectations right from everybody is, I think, the key learning I had in the last years. And I’m talking about the employees you hire - you promise something. I talk about any kind of stakeholders, especially also farmers. I mean promising you come back and build a school and not doing it - not cool. But I’m also talking about investors. Getting all those expectations right, I think makes you much stronger in everything. It also prevents you having to make decisions without a proper base in the end. If you promise too much, you run for something which might not be healthy. So this is the key learning in growing Coffee Circle.

C: That's definitely a strong one. Now, if you could change one thing in Berlin within the next 24 hours - what would it be?

M: I would probably put Berlin next to a mountain and next to the sea.

C: Haha, I love that, I support that. That’s the only thing that’s missing.

M: Yes. I mean I grew up next to the alps… Wouldn’t it be awesome?

C: Yeah, let’s just dream of it. What question should I have asked you but didn’t ?

M: Ah! That’s a good one. You mean the one that I didn’t want to answer? Hmmm, I mean you didn’t ask me for… You said that everything about our development is great, but of course, it isn’t. So you didn’t ask me what was actually not great.

C: Tell me…

M: Actually, the truth is, what you sell and what is so positive - of course, we have a nice development - but behind the scenes, there is always a lot of pressure. What you didn’t know maybe. We had to cut down our people in 2013/14. So expectations were not managed right for me, not at all. We tried a lot of things, spent a lot of money and went almost bankrupt. And then had to fire so many people. We went down from 40 to 11 people.

This has not been a nice experience. Because you promised to those people, which you then have to let go…

C: How did you stand up from that?

M: I think just continue working. I mean, when you know what it is you can say “ok, that’s it now, let’s see what we can do with the situation”. And then we kept on working hard on it and we turned it around. And then you grow, you’re much stronger than before - but you’re also somehow much more humble. You also appreciate more what people do for Coffee Circle. You don’t always push “let’s go for it, let’s go for it”. You really rethink and strengthen what you are capable of… I think that made us a much more valuable company in the end…

But for everybody, because most of the people working for Coffee Circle didn’t actually work for another company before. So you can imagine, it was even harder to understand for them - and all of that I think was an experience I don’t want to miss. Of course, I would have loved to realize it before having to fire so many people and spend that much money. We were talking about expectations from investors, expectations to yourself… And I think most entrepreneurs have been through such kinds of situation and I expect most of them to say exactly the same kind of thing. That it was worth it, even though it really hurt.

C: I love how you put this, because I can totally feel and imagine… you’re sitting here and talking about this deep negative experience but now, looking back it’s been a valuable experience. It makes you even more what you are now and I think that’s awesome.

M: Maybe don’t take yourself too serious all the time. I do take myself serious to be very honest. But still, I think sometimes to just realize: okay, it is important. But somehow, get it calibrated.

C: Yeah! I totally, 100% sign that. Brilliant take-away to finish. Martin, thank you so much for really letting me dig deep here and being so open about everything… It’s been an absolute pleasure for me to chat to you & hear more about all those amazing things that you and your team create here. It’s just so inspiring to see how much you care!

Very excited to follow your journey and see what comes next - hope many many people out there get inspired and motivated that our future is actually pretty awesome and everyone can have an impact out there. At least that’s what you clearly prove. So please keep up your energy & all the best for you and your team!